RELIGION: The Big Hurdle

Jakob wrote:I'm not a firm believer in String Theory or Quantum Mechanics either. Just because the calculations work, doesn't mean the concepts are actually correct. They smell every bit as fishy to me as this god idea.

Fair enough.

I've always been able to have faith in the unseen and the unknown, but I suspect that's more a case of "want" than "believe." I like thinking there's a sasquatch in the forest or an Ogopogo in my hometown lake. I like thinking our planet once played host to superior cultures that vanished, forgotten. I like hoping visitors from other worlds will visit us. It's part of who I am: an optimist crossed with a realist, with a healthy helping of faith. For instance, I've never seen Marius, but I'm pretty sure he exists.

Then again, I've seen Jakob, and I still have my doubts.

God is a whole other story.

In many ways I feel the same way about religion as I do about Oprah. They are both pretty good for the people who need them, generally influence people in positive a way, sometimes taken too far, and not for me.

I don't have a lot of examples of this but, I have found that sometimes children who are raised without religion turn to it of their own accord later in life. My cousins who were raised without religion have become opposite, religion wise, in adulthood.

My cousin Daniel is not religious at all, while my cousin Chris became Mormon shortly after going to college in Arizona. I was pretty shocked by his conversion, but I think it was my mom who put it best. She said "He was already pretty much Mormon in the way he lived." He didn't drink, smoke, take drugs or have sex. He was a pure guy, through and through. So it wasn't a huge lifestyle transformation for him.

The thing that I don't get is how an intelligent, grown man could buy into the origins of the Mormon faith. Joseph Smith Jr. was tipped off by an angel named Moroni that there were some gold plates buried in a hill near his house. He dug them up and translated them using a chocolate coloured stone that he found when digging a well. This was in 1827. That's the thing that really gets me. What were people doing believing this stuff in 1827?? Although, I suppose Scientology is even more recent and even more ridiculous.

I guess there's no accounting for the tripe folk will believe.

Some people worship gods.

I worship Nerd Hurdles.

We should build an altar.

Marius wrote:The whole 'does God exist' issue reminds me of string theory. There are aspects of string theory that simply cannot be directly observed or tested, yet we cannot dismiss them as non-existent. I have my doubts as to the existence of a supreme being, but it is scientifically untenable to state with certainty that something does not exist. I think that Sasquatch and Nessie are extremely unlikely to exist, but it would be irresponsible for me to categorically claim that they do not. I suspect you are correct, Jakob, that the laws of physics are the same in all areas of the universe, but until I have data from everywhere I cannot assume that to be true. We have only one sample to base our estimate of what life is, and a sample group of one is not statistically useful. Therefore it is, in my opinion, far too soon to believe that we have a handle on what the boundaries of life, and by extension consciousness, are.

I like this argument. At first it made sense to me. Then I thought it through. I do not believe in God, I have looked into it and with the brainpower available and the evidence I concluded that it was a comfort blanket, not reality. I have never looked into string theory so I can't really comment.

However should someone say to me that because (or just in case) String Theory exists I should dedicate one day a week to worshipping it, look deep inside myself to see what String Theory would prefer me to do and treat others as String Theory sees fit I would tell you to sod off. First prove String Theory exists and then I'll reconsider whether String Theory is fit to dictate the rules of my life.

Mekka wrote:

Marius wrote:The whole 'does God exist' issue reminds me of string theory. There are aspects of string theory that simply cannot be directly observed or tested, yet we cannot dismiss them as non-existent. I have my doubts as to the existence of a supreme being, but it is scientifically untenable to state with certainty that something does not exist. I think that Sasquatch and Nessie are extremely unlikely to exist, but it would be irresponsible for me to categorically claim that they do not. I suspect you are correct, Jakob, that the laws of physics are the same in all areas of the universe, but until I have data from everywhere I cannot assume that to be true. We have only one sample to base our estimate of what life is, and a sample group of one is not statistically useful. Therefore it is, in my opinion, far too soon to believe that we have a handle on what the boundaries of life, and by extension consciousness, are.

I like this argument. At first it made sense to me. Then I thought it through. I do not believe in God, I have looked into it and with the brainpower available and the evidence I concluded that it was a comfort blanket, not reality. I have never looked into string theory so I can't really comment.

However should someone say to me that because (or just in case) String Theory exists I should dedicate one day a week to worshipping it, look deep inside myself to see what String Theory would prefer me to do and treat others as String Theory sees fit I would tell you to sod off. First prove String Theory exists and then I'll reconsider whether String Theory is fit to dictate the rules of my life.

And there we have the false dichotomy that many fundamentalists, both religious and scientific, would have us believe exists. Religion at its best reinforces the morals necessary for large societies to function smoothly, while science provides the knowledge and infrastructure to understand and manipulate the physical world. There is no need for them to be antagonistic, yet the two camps lock horns all the time. I would classify myself an agnostic, but I was dismayed while reading Hawking's A Brief History of Time when he stated that his science showed no need for a god. Conversely, my wife asked me to attend Easter services with her a couple of years ago, and the pastor spent most of the sermon spewing 'young Earth' bullshit and generally pissing me off with his scientific ignorance. To the scientists I say stay away from the pulpit and focus on your area of expertise. To the priests I say stay away from the lab, and concern yourselves with the souls of your parishioners. If both camps played only in their own sandboxes the world would be a much more harmonious place. In my opinion, of course.

I agree. I think that religion is bunkum. Yet the comfort it provides it's believers on a daily basis outweighs it's negative effect. Though the religious right in the US keep doing their best to alter this. Why would I want to deny someone their religion? Religion has never done me any harm. Nutters may have done with their twisted take on religious texts. Fundamental atheists need to learn that you cannot batter someone into non-belief.

The only caveat I would insert here is the Catholic church and it's condom policy.

Mekka wrote:The only caveat I would insert here is the Catholic church and it's condom policy.

The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for.

Without ranting and raving too much about the Catholic Church, I think alot of the problems that arise from these big religious organisations is that they're too big and too inflexible. They can't adapt to the numerous different situations that exist round the world and lose sight of what they're for.

In a better world each church/temple/etc world exist by themselves.

They kind of have to be infexible though. If you allow your belief system to change with the times, you'll have problems with claiming it's the veracity later on. "Oh, those core beliefs from thirty years ago weren't exactly gospel. These beliefs are. Honest, we've got it right now." Unless you're splintering off and starting your own church, you can't really change much. A religion can't be too wishy-washy with its dogma or people won't take it seriously. People are drawn to religion because it's a concrete, unwavering truth.

I don't know why I started this thread when there is proof like this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090501/ap_on_fe_st/odd_griddle_virgin_mary

Of course, Los Straitjackets are very, very cool...

I'm a Christian ( ) but to be honest I do find it annoying that I get painted with the same brush as Catholics. I simply believe in the Bible and although I know that this isn't he most popular view within these sorts of forums but I really don't mind because unlike everyone else, I have the whole 'life' thing straight in my head. Don't worry though, I'm sure a lot of you know that I'm not gonna preach because I don't in other forums or Twitter or anything but I do find it annoying that I am thought of as hating certain types of people. I believe we are all equal and hate it when other branches of Christianity make it look like I don't.

I'm going to sound stupid here but why don't all Christians just believe in one type of Christianity, why are there so many branches off one book. whats the difference, I'd like to hear the perspective of this from a christian as i don't really have any religious friends.

Plus do you think its stupid that there are still people fighting over being Protestant or Catholic, especially whenIi'm told the bible is meant to be a peaceful thing. Love one another and all that.

can anyone field these questions????

Wilco wrote:

Plus do you think its stupid that there are still people fighting over being Protestant or Catholic, especially whenIi'm told the bible is meant to be a peaceful thing. Love one another and all that.

Yes, but they've spent a good 500 years whining about it and they aren't about to stop now.

I had a very interesting conversation about, among other things, religion today with GAB. Most of it will be posted as the next Admiral's Table at simplysyndicated.com.

I'd like to have a conversation with GAB like that. HurdleBaseCon really needs to be put into reality.